Casey J. Cornelius (00:06):
Hey everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the ForCollegeForLife podcast. My name is Casey Cornelius. I’m the founder and president ForCollegeForLife, otherwise known as America’s leading college speaking agency. And I have the pleasure on this podcast to interview our speakers and facilitators and consultants, the people who really make us that leading agency. Today I have the opportunity to sit down with Q McEachearn. I’m not going to get into his bio, you probably know him by now. If not, you’re going to look at the show notes and see a link and all that other kind of stuff. But we want to talk today about some important changes that he’s doing in his programming, some evolution of content that I think is really, really important. So no further ado, no long buildup. Let me go ahead and bring to the mic. None other than Q.
Q McEachern (00:58):
What’s up? What’s up? How you doing, Casey?
Casey J. Cornelius (00:59):
How was that for an intro? Did it feel right?
Q McEachern (01:03):
It feels good.
Casey J. Cornelius (01:04):
It feels good. You already know him. He goes by one initial q. I think that this is one of those podcasts that’s kind of cool because people might not yet know, but you have introduced a new program and I want to give you some clear space here just to talk about it, to talk about what it is and what the goals are. So do you want to tell us a little bit about this new program that’s now available?
Q McEachern (01:39):
Sure. So I’m excited about this new program mostly because it’s a reflection of an older program that I’ve done called More Than Black Boxes, and it really just is an evolution of that program, which I’m really, really excited about. So it’s called Is it All Performative? Is it all Performative? It’s a question that I’ve heard a lot on social media for a lot from talking to students of, we posted for Black History Month and people called it performative. We released a statement after something happened on campus and people called it performative. We keep trying to do things to make change on our campus within our organizations, and people call it performative. And so is it all performative? Is everything performative because I don’t see any change happening, particularly while I’m in school or while I’m a part of my experience as a part of my organization.
(02:37):
And so the program itself just dives deeper into that concept of what are the ways that we are challenging the idea that these individual actions that we’re trying to take are addressing the bigger complex root issues that are causing challenges within our organizations. And so it challenges us to think more deeply about the ways that we’re being strategic in our actions. How are we having a systems thinking approach versus thinking about our own individual posts on social media or those things? How are we contributing to addressing the bigger issues that are happening? And answering that question truly of is it all performative?
Casey J. Cornelius (03:19):
I think what I like about this is that you frame it as a question. For those of you who haven’t yet looked at the text of this new program, you can find it by the way, on for college, for life.com/q. It is really framed as a question mark. Is it all performative? I like that. But so in the spirit of asking a question, I want to start kind of at ground one first level. So for those who might not be familiar with that term, the terminology of performance or performative actions, can you talk a little bit about what that means
Q McEachern (03:58):
For sure? So I think performance is one of those words that kind of people have a lot of assumptions around meanings and it’s a really complex word, but I think about performance in a couple of different ways. I think about performance and is are the actions that we’re taking having a sustainable, tangible, direct impact on the issues that we’re trying to address? So by posting this thing on social media, are we addressing something and causing a real impact? That’s where the black box comes in from a previous example of summer 2020, there’s black boxes across our social media. Was us posting those black boxes, did that create sustainable tangible impacts on issues around police brutality and anti-blackness? Which folks can have their answer? And I think that that’s a way to think about performance. But the more research I’ve done, I realized that that’s very subjective.
(04:55):
The impact is subjective. The idea of if something is performative, oftentimes it’s based on how much we trust the person that’s doing the action and how consistent they’ve been in showing up. And so there’s some things like black boxes where we’ll say that’s performative. There are some things where we see a post on socials around a statement and we’ll say that’s performative. But a lot of times, two different entities, organizations can do the exact same action and folks will see one thing as performative. And for the other organization it’s not. And a lot of times that’s rooted in how much we trust an organization that they are going to be doing the thing they say that is important and consistency. Have they showed up in that way in the past? And so that’s why I say performative activism advocacy is so complex. It’s because it’s a lot of varying factors, some of which are very subjective and that’s why we all call different things performative. And then other things are how have you been showing up outside of that one individual action? And that’s going to determine if folks perceive your actions as performative.
Casey J. Cornelius (06:04):
I really like like the framework that you’re sharing. And I think back to the 2020 example, and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s it’s the difference between Ben and Jerry’s putting out a statement and fill in the blank random ice cream company putting out a statement. Ben and Jerry’s has a history and legacy. It’s part of their DNA to stand up for what they believe in versus someone that it just appears like they’re doing it just because
Q McEachern (06:34):
Everyone else is. Am I getting that right? Exactly the way you see one organization that has been showing up for years and years and years, and they say, I used an example actually in the previous iteration of this onboarding black boxes where we put up Instagram post that just says Black Lives Matter and there’s no logo attached to it. And we asked the question, is this performative or not? And then we put the NAACP’s logo on that same post. We’re like, is this performative or not? And then we put up a Tesla logo, put up a Target logo, we put up Joe Rogan and it’s like, is this performative or not? And very Ink. Some people say all of them performative, some people say none of them are performative. And then some people fluctuate between the different organizations. And to me that shares the answer that it’s perception of how much trust and how much we’ve seen organizations show up in the past.
Casey J. Cornelius (07:28):
I want to pull back a curtain just a little bit and have a conversation. You and I are friends and I ask questions of my friends sometimes as a means of getting better as a person. I want to share two with you, one that I think we probably agree on and one I’m still kind of on the fence about, but I might be willing to die on the hill for it, right? The first one is, I remember having a conversation with you recently about feeling like I shouldn’t say something about whatever the issue was because I didn’t want it to be perceived as value signaling or performative, even though I felt strongly about it. And I remember you challenging me and kind of like, Hey, I would rather you piss some people off by saying what you believe rather than saying nothing. So on this continuum of performance, what do you say to the folks who are like, I think I want to, but I don’t want to do it wrong.
Q McEachern (08:33):
And that’s always the big question of I don’t want to feel the backlash from folks. And my response to that is always that it’s important to amplify and speak up about the things that are important and passionate to individuals and to the organization and to be super clear about where you stand, because I’m under the firm belief that our organizations, we want to be building spaces where folks can feel connected. And fraternities and sororities too are level on values heavily. And so based on our organization’s values, we should be moving and being vocal within those values. And so in that case, there’s always, I hear a lot that fear of saying get wrong or doing it wrong, but a lot of that also comes with practice and showing up and consistency and that first time you ever say something about an issue, yeah, there’s probably going to be some perceptions that it’s performative.
(09:32):
And if you choose to do nothing after that statement, after that post, after that one action, it will be performative because there’s no impact, there’s no follow through, there’s no showing up. But that’s the feeling around it. That’s the bottom line is that post is there and what are we doing next? And so in our conversation it’s just like that. I want to hear you share where you are on something. So then I also have the space to be like, I agree or disagree, I connect or disconnect. Otherwise, we’re really creating spaces where nobody’s happy. Folks are either wanting for you to not say anything and you said something, or there’s folks that are sitting there wanting for you to say something and you say nothing. I feel like there’s a bigger message of speaking up and standing on the values that we all say that we hold and cherish and are dear to our organizations.
Casey J. Cornelius (10:31):
And this is kind of a secondary thought on this too, in my own space and sphere Challenge folks as it relates to values and what they stand for and priorities and justice and so forth. If you believe strongly in something, we’ll use posting as an example. Sure. It shouldn’t just be your story because stories disappear in 24 hours, right? If you’re really about something, it shouldn’t just go away. But I want to kind of tangentially get into this idea of posting, and you referenced it a little bit in terms of companies and their logos and so forth. So I don’t even know if we agree on this. We might fundamentally disagree.
(11:17):
I cringe, for lack of a better term, cringe when I see people putting their logo on things as if they’re sponsoring it. The Cartoon network sponsors, I don’t know, I’m picking on Cartoon Network. I’m just using it as an example. Here’s this post about Hispanic Heritage Month with a Cartoon Network logo or seven 11 logo, whatever it might be. Here’s my take on it. I’m just going to kind of get out of the way and let you tell me if I’m dead wrong or somewhere in the middle. If you’re posting something, your name is already attached to it. You don’t have to put your logo on it as a means of branding and marketing. You’re already saying, this is what we believe in, so this is where I get out of the way. Am I right, wrong, somewhere in the middle? Where are you at on this?
Q McEachern (12:15):
I think for me is not that deep for me is not that deep. I think that the posting and sharing and logo are not, it’s not that deep to me in the sense that I’m always thinking about what’s outside of that one individual action, if that makes sense. And so let’s use Cartoon Network. If Cartoon Network decides to post for Pride Month and put their logo on it. I’m looking to see what’s happening outside of that post. What work has Cartoon Network done around supporting queer folks internationally as an international organization? In what ways does the organization support folks lgbtq plus folks within the network? What do they do about creating content around queer folks and queer perspectives in a way that is representative and respectful of folks? And so that’s the way I see it. Versus in that same vein, we see every June organizations change their logos to the pride flag.
(13:21):
You’ll see if you haven’t seen it before, you’ll notice it next year in 2025. You see it over and over. And I think within that self, we could call that tokenizing and a performative act. But I’m looking to see what these organizations are doing because I think that glad as an organization may be doing something different. Trevor project like doing that may be not maybe is different then a Chick-fil-A or an organization that is clearly, clearly supporting politicians that are causing violence around homophobia. And so that’s where I sit with it. You’ve shared that before, if that’s something that irks you, and that’s fine and that’s fine. I think for me it’s just like for me, it’s not that deep. And I’m thinking about what are the actions outside of that individual post. And really where this program really gets to it’s how are we taking a step outside of the individual action and seeing how that creates a thread for sustainable and long-term impact overall. I
Casey J. Cornelius (14:22):
Hope what we just did there over the last couple of minutes was also model in some ways how absolutely good, well-intentioned people can have dialogue about things that are tough. I would love to say the issues that both of us care about so deeply are clear cut, right, wrong, yes, no, do this or don’t do this. But the truth is there’s a whole lot of gray and I hope that people, I know that they see you as a leading voice on these topics, but I hope that they take a look at this new content offering as an opportunity to better engage organizationally, but then also interpersonally about issues that matter. Goodness knows we could use a little more critical dialogue these days as opposed to dialogue just being critical. So folks, if you want to learn more, remember it’s for college for life.com/q.
(15:28):
In the spirit of us being friends, and I know this podcast sometimes reveals humanity amongst the people who are doing this work. I also, you’ve referenced it a couple of times, I want to make sure that we talk about it. You are retiring for a lack of a better term. This is a phrase that we use in our industry. You are retiring the program more than black boxes, and this was an initial signature program of yours. So I want to just ask you to reflect a little bit on not only what that means personally, professionally, but then also the process that you took on to figure out whether or not this program needed to move from where it was to where it’s going to be.
Q McEachern (16:18):
For sure. And I feel remiss without starting from the beginning of more than black boxes and that exactly what you said, Casey, that this is a program that is core to my speaking career and journey. I started speaking, I had my first keynote session or my first workshop in February of 2020 right before the pandemic started, by the way, for folks listening. And I spent the next several months after we were home thinking about how do I hone my craft and what are the messages that I think are so important and more than black boxes is based on the summer of 2020 where June 2nd we saw our social media filled with black boxes. And the program builds upon that as a vehicle to talk about performative activism and what are the ways that we as organizations are challenging performance as it shows up in kind of our intentions.
(17:29):
And so I’ve done a TED talk around the black boxes phenomena. This program was built on that more than Black Boxes, was my first spotlighted program at a conference for it’s featured program. And the message around blackout Tuesday, I feel is so, so powerful as a huge movement, social media movement that hasn’t lended its way to much impact in our daily lives right now in retiring this program, this process has been months of Casey, we’ve been in conversation about this for months around sometimes this just feels like there needs to be an evolution of a thought and acknowledging that some of the things that were true in 2020 are also things that have evolved and changed today. And so in retiring more than black boxes, I believe that I’m also creating space for the same impact within a new conversation. And that’s something that I feel like is hard because more than black boxes is like near and dear to me.
(18:47):
And the message of it is still going to be within everything that I do and that our organizations have to be more intentional about how we’re showing up in addressing systemic issues and root causes versus just posting on social media to put a bandaid on something and then disappearing and hoping no one challenges us. And this new program of is it all performative is an evolution of that. It’s more research that I’ve done in learning and growing since then. It’s an understanding that there are things that we see as performative because the impact was not there. And we can see that over three, four years since Blackout Tuesday. And there’s also the reflection, a lot of intentionality behind things that we just don’t know. We can’t assume people’s intent when they’re posting that they’re doing something just so that they can feel good about themselves. That’s an assumption. But what we can do is start to be more consistent in our actions, start to let the little steps build up to big steps and start to address the bigger issues over time by starting with the first step. And so that’s kind of my process here, man. I am both sad to see a program be retired and also overwhelmingly excited about what the next iteration of this core programming really looks like.
Casey J. Cornelius (20:17):
You said earlier, it’s not that deep. I love that phrase, by the way. It’s not that deep, but you can actually hear in Q’s answer just now, the depth of his feelings about it. I have the extreme privilege, benefit, honor of getting to have off camera, off mics, non-recorded early morning, late night travel together, conversations with Q and seeing his evolution on ideas as well. And there’s a real good reason why you’re so trusted on these topics, and I’m sure I’ve said this to you privately too, but I’m going to do it now in this public arena as well.
(21:08):
The evolution is because you have contributed to this really important topic concept phenomena as well. And we should not overlook that. There’s a reason people keep inviting q to stages and to dive deep with communities and organizations. And I hope that the people who are listening to this who might be hearing about you and your work for the first time, dig more deeply in terms of that. For those who’ve worked with you in the past and are interested in what this evolution is looking like, hear your answer and why it’s happening. I think that that’s super important as well. And listen, I also know that there’s some speakers who listen to this podcast. I know the idea of retiring something that is core, central to your identity. It’s almost like retiring a child or something. We’ve brought something into this world and now we feel like we’re setting it down, but the way that you described it so eloquently that it’s not setting it down, it’s being excited for what is next, really struck me. I mean, I appreciate you sharing your vulnerability about this too. I wanted to make sure that we made some time for that. For those who are learning about Q for the first time in this podcast, first of all, where have you been? But second of all, stop it. Anything you want folks to know about you, your style, content, anything of the sort?
Q McEachern (22:48):
Yeah, I would love for folks to know that I’m just a real person. That’s really how I’ve built the way that I speak, the way that I connect with audiences. The way that I facilitate rooms is that I want for folks to feel that they can come into the space. Oftentimes when you’re talking about concepts of diversity, equity, inclusion, justice focused conversations, there’s already an immediate wall that a lot of folks come in of, especially folks who are white men cisgender. I think that what I try to do is help folks bring that wall down with my own vulnerability and allow for us to connect together. I talk about areas where I messed, I don’t just talk about these topics. I live all of this and I make mistakes too. And I’m not trying to get in front of folks and act like I’m the perfect human who gets all of this through and through, and that you need to get on my level.
(24:02):
That’s not me. I come in and create spaces for folks to have positively uncomfortable conversations. I believe where we feel that uncomfortability in our gut, but we know that it’s leading us to a more positive direction. The way we can show up as leaders, as students, as humans in the world. It leads us to a space where we can have a more difficult conversation with our friends, where we can challenge, where we see inequities and issues showing up. And it all starts with sitting down in that chair and hearing that we’re talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, feeling, that little feeling that we all feel. We can acknowledge that we feel it, but I try to create spaces where we can let that subside a little bit and just dive in and understand the why it’s important for us to think about this. Why is it important for us to think about equity, inclusion, and recruitment?
(24:55):
Why is it important for us to think about it as first year students are entering campus? Why is it important for us to think about equity and inclusion as we talk about hazing? I think that, I don’t think, I know that these conversations are critical within every aspect of this work. And so my goal when I stand in front of an audience or sit in front of a group of folks and we’re having a conversation is to get folks to lean in a little bit, take one step closer into the uncomfortability and challenge themselves to be one step further in their journey of creating equity and inclusion in the spaces they occupy. That’s my goal. That’s how I show up. You talk to anybody who’s had me on their campus or in their organization cross my fingers. I hope they would say the same. And so yeah, if you want me to be in your spaces, that’s what you get from me. It’s just a real human being trying to get us to be better for each other. Man, I
Casey J. Cornelius (25:49):
Love that. Glad I’m not on video during this. Would’ve been seeing me clapping and snapping, all the other kind of stuff in the background. So Q, speaking of social media, you’re a great follower on social media. Where’s best for people to connect with you?
Q McEachern (26:05):
Oh yeah, follow me on Instagram at McEachernSpeaks. You can also connect maybe on LinkedIn if you want to. I post on both of those two most frequently. And I love to connect with folks, and it’s me too. It’s me. I’m just as real with my voice through this podcast as I am on social media, as I am in person. And so would love to connect with you all.
Casey J. Cornelius (26:31):
He’s not one of those people who’s yet hired somebody to run his social media. When you say it’s him, it’s him also on the other end of it, right? So when you have questions, thoughts. So he’s fantastic about dialoguing as well. So the only thing that we ask for this podcast folks is if you’ve enjoyed it, please make sure you do the things you’re supposed to do with podcasts, like and share and subscribe. But also if you would please try to get this episode in the hands or ears or whatever of someone who needs to hear Q in his message. It really means a lot. We do our best to put out content that is meaningful and impactful, but also that is relevant. So if there’s something else that you’d like to hear about from Q’S perspective or from the perspective of another of our speakers, facilitators, consultants, please absolutely let us know. Share this on your favorite social media platform and we would love to connect with you there as well. Q, thank you so much for this dialogue. I appreciate it. As always, when we hit record, when we just are chatting, I always learn something. I appreciate you so much.
Q McEachern (27:40):
Absolutely appreciate you too.
Casey J. Cornelius (27:42):
Alright guys, until next time, we appreciate you. Be well. We’ll talk soon.
